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# Article: How to get best results from the FreeBSD-questions mailing list

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<article>

  <articleinfo>

    <title>¦p¦ó¦b FreeBSD-questions mailing list ¤W±o¨ì¥¿¸Ñ</title>

    <author>

      <firstname>Greg</firstname>

      <surname>Lehey</surname>

      <affiliation>

	<address><email>grog@FreeBSD.org</email></address>

      </affiliation>

    </author>

    <pubdate>$FreeBSD$</pubdate>

    <legalnotice id="trademarks" role="trademarks">

      &tm-attrib.freebsd;

      &tm-attrib.microsoft;

      &tm-attrib.netscape;

      &tm-attrib.opengroup;

      &tm-attrib.qualcomm;

      &tm-attrib.general;

    </legalnotice>

    <abstract>

      <para>¥»¤å¥D­n¬Oµ¹·Ç³Æ¼g«H¨ì FreeBSD-questions mailing list ªº¤H´£¨Ñ¤@¨Ç°Ñ¦Ò¡C

        §Ú­Ì·|µ¹§A¤@¨Çµo°Ýªº§Þ¥©»P«Øij¡A¥H«KÅý§Aªºµª®×±o¨ì§ó¦³¥ÎªºµªÂСC</para>

      <para>¥»¤å·|©w´Áµo¨ì FreeBSD-questions mailing list ¤W¡C</para>

    </abstract>

  </articleinfo>

  <sect1>

    <title id="Introduction">²¤¶</title>

    <para><literal>FreeBSD-questions</literal> is a mailing list maintained by

      the FreeBSD project to help people who have questions about the normal

      use of FreeBSD.  Another group, <literal>FreeBSD-hackers</literal>,

      discusses more advanced questions such as future development

      work.</para>

    <note>

      <para>The term <quote>hacker</quote> has nothing to do with breaking

	into other people's computers.  The correct term for the latter

	activity is <quote>cracker</quote>, but the popular press has not found

	out yet.  The FreeBSD hackers disapprove strongly of cracking

	security, and have nothing to do with it.  For a longer description of

	hackers, see Eric Raymond's <ulink

	url="http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html">How To Become

	A Hacker</ulink></para>

    </note>

    <para>This is a regular posting aimed to help both those seeking advice

      from FreeBSD-questions (the <quote>newcomers</quote>), and also those

      who answer the questions (the <quote>hackers</quote>).</para>

    <para>Inevitably there is some friction, which stems from the different

      viewpoints of the two groups.  The newcomers accuse the hackers of being

      arrogant, stuck-up, and unhelpful, while the hackers accuse the

      newcomers of being stupid, unable to read plain English, and expecting

      everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.  Of course, there is

      an element of truth in both these claims, but for the most part these

      viewpoints come from a sense of frustration.</para>

    <para>In this document, I would like to do something to relieve this

      frustration and help everybody get better results from

      FreeBSD-questions.  In the following section, I recommend how to submit

      a question; after that, we will look at how to answer one.</para>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="subscribe">How to subscribe to FreeBSD-questions</title>

    <para>FreeBSD-questions is a mailing list, so you need mail access.  Point

      your WWW browser to the <ulink url="&a.questions.url;">information page of the FreeBSD-questions mailing list</ulink>.

      In the section titled <quote>Subscribing to freebsd-questions</quote> fill

      in the <quote>Your email address</quote> field; the other fields are optional.

    </para>

    <note>

      <para>The password fields in the subscription form provide only mild

        security, but should prevent others from messing with your

        subscription.  <emphasis>Do not use a valuable password</emphasis> as

        it will occasionally be emailed back to you in cleartext.</para>

    </note>

    <para>You will receive a confirmation message from

      <application>mailman</application>; follow the included instructions

      to complete your subscription.</para>

    <para>Finally, when you get the <quote>Welcome</quote> message from

      <application>mailman</application> telling you the details of the list

      and subscription area password, <emphasis>please save it</emphasis>.

      If you ever should want to leave the list, you will need the information

      there.  See the next section for more details.</para>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="unsubscribe">How to unsubscribe from FreeBSD-questions</title>

    <para>When you subscribed to FreeBSD-questions, you got a welcome message

      from <application>mailman</application>.  In this message, amongst

      other things, it told you how to unsubscribe.  Here is a typical

      message:</para>

    <literallayout class="monospaced">Welcome to the freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list!

To post to this list, send your email to:

  freebsd-questions@freebsd.org

General information about the mailing list is at:

  http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions

If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (e.g., switch to

or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your

subscription page at:

http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-questions/grog%40lemsi.de

You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to:

  freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org

with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the

quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions.

You must know your password to change your options (including changing

the password, itself) or to unsubscribe.  It is:

  12345

Normally, Mailman will remind you of your freebsd.org mailing list

passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you

prefer.  This reminder will also include instructions on how to

unsubscribe or change your account options.  There is also a button on

your options page that will email your current password to you.</literallayout>

    <para>From the URL specified in your <quote>Welcome</quote> message you

      may visit the <quote>Account management page</quote> and enter a request

      to <quote>Unsubscribe</quote> you from FreeBSD-questions mailing

      list.</para>

    <para>A confirmation message will be sent to you from

      <application>mailman</application>; follow the included instructions

      to finish unsubscribing.</para>

    <para>If you have done this, and you still can not figure out what

      is going on, send a message to

      <email>freebsd-questions-request@FreeBSD.org</email>, and they will

      sort things out for you.  <emphasis>Do not</emphasis> send a message to

      FreeBSD-questions: they can not help you.</para>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="askwho">Should I ask <literal>-questions</literal> or

      <literal>-hackers</literal>?</title>

    <para>Two mailing lists handle general questions about FreeBSD,

      <literal>FreeBSD-questions</literal> and

      <literal>FreeBSD-hackers</literal>.  In some cases, it is not really

      clear which group you should ask.  The following criteria should help

      for 99% of all questions, however:</para>

    <orderedlist>

      <listitem>

	<para>If the question is of a general nature, ask

	  <literal>FreeBSD-questions</literal>.  Examples might be questions

	  about installing FreeBSD or the use of a particular &unix;

	  utility.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>If you think the question relates to a bug, but you are not sure,

	  or you do not know how to look for it, send the message to

	  <literal>FreeBSD-questions</literal>.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>If the question relates to a bug, and you are

	  <emphasis>sure</emphasis> that it is a bug (for example, you can

	  pinpoint the place in the code where it happens, and you maybe have

	  a fix), then send the message to

	  <literal>FreeBSD-hackers</literal>.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>If the question relates to enhancements to FreeBSD, and you

	  can make suggestions about how to implement them, then send the

	  message to <literal>FreeBSD-hackers</literal>.</para>

      </listitem>

    </orderedlist>

    <para>There are also a number of other specialized mailing lists, for

      example <literal>FreeBSD-isp</literal>, which caters to the interests of

      ISPs (Internet Service Providers) who run FreeBSD.  If you happen to be

      an ISP, this does not mean you should automatically send your questions

      to <literal>FreeBSD-isp</literal>.  The criteria above still apply, and

      it is in your interest to stick to them, since you are more likely to get

      good results that way.</para>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="before">Before submitting a question</title>

    <para>You can (and should) do some things yourself before asking a question

      on one of the mailing lists:</para>

    <itemizedlist>

      <listitem>

        <para>Try solving the problem on your own.  If you post a question which

	  shows that you have tried to solve the problem, your question will

	  generally attract more positive attention from people reading it.

	  Trying to solve the problem yourself will also enhance your understanding

	  of FreeBSD, and will eventually let you use your knowledge to help others

	  by answering questions posted to the mailing lists.

	</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

        <para>Read the manual pages, and the FreeBSD documentation (either

	  installed in <filename>/usr/doc</filename> or accessible via WWW at

	  <ulink url="http://www.FreeBSD.org"></ulink>), especially the

	  <ulink url="&url.books.handbook;/index.html">handbook</ulink>

	  and the <ulink url="&url.books.faq;/index.html">FAQ</ulink>.

	</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

        <para>Browse and/or search the archives for the mailing list, to see if your

	  question or a similar one has been asked (and possibly answered) on the

	  list.  You can browse and/or search the mailing list archives

	  at <ulink url="http://www.FreeBSD.org/mail"></ulink>

	  and <ulink url="http://www.FreeBSD.org/search/search.html#mailinglists"></ulink>

	  respectively.  This can be done at other WWW sites as well, for example

	  at <ulink url="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com"></ulink>.

	</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

        <para>Use a search engine such as <ulink url="http://www.google.com">Google</ulink>

          or <ulink url="http://www.yahoo.com">Yahoo</ulink> to find answers to your question.

	  Google even has a <ulink

	  url="http://www.google.com/bsd">BSD-specific search interface</ulink>.

        </para>

      </listitem>

    </itemizedlist>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="submit">How to submit a question</title>

    <para>When submitting a question to FreeBSD-questions, consider the

      following points:</para>

    <itemizedlist>

      <listitem>

	<para>Remember that nobody gets paid for answering a FreeBSD

	  question. They do it of their own free will.  You can influence this

	  free will positively by submitting a well-formulated question

	  supplying as much relevant information as possible.  You can

	  influence this free will negatively by submitting an incomplete,

	  illegible, or rude question. It is perfectly possible to send a

	  message to FreeBSD-questions and not get an answer even if you

	  follow these rules.  It is much more possible to not get an answer if

	  you do not.  In the rest of this document, we will look at how to get

	  the most out of your question to FreeBSD-questions.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Not everybody who answers FreeBSD questions reads every message:

	  they look at the subject line and decide whether it interests them.

	  Clearly, it is in your interest to specify a subject. <quote>FreeBSD

	  problem</quote> or <quote>Help</quote> are not enough.  If you provide no subject at

	  all, many people will not bother reading it.  If your subject is not

	  specific enough, the people who can answer it may not read

	  it.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Format your message so that it is	legible, and

	    PLEASE DO NOT SHOUT!!!!!.  We appreciate that a lot of people do not

	    speak English as their first language, and we try to make

	    allowances for that, but it is really painful to try to read a

	    message written full of typos or without any line breaks.</para>

	<para>Do not underestimate the effect that a poorly formatted mail

	  message has, not just on the FreeBSD-questions mailing list.

	  Your mail message is all people see of you, and if it is poorly

	  formatted, one line per paragraph, badly spelt, or full of

	  errors, it will give people a poor impression of you.</para>

	<para>A lot of badly formatted messages come from

	  <ulink url="http://www.lemis.com/email.html">bad mailers or badly

	  configured mailers</ulink>.  The following mailers are known to

	  send out badly formatted messages without you finding out about

	  them:</para>

	<itemizedlist>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>cc:Mail</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>&eudora;</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>exmh</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>&microsoft; Exchange</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>&microsoft; Internet Mail</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>&microsoft; &outlook;</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>&netscape;</para>

	  </listitem>

	</itemizedlist>

	<para>As you can see, the mailers in the Microsoft world are frequent

	  offenders.  If at all possible, use a &unix; mailer. If you must use a

	  mailer under Microsoft environments, make sure it is set up

	  correctly. Try not to use <acronym>MIME</acronym>: a lot of people

	  use mailers which do not get on very well with

	  <acronym>MIME</acronym>.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Make sure your time and time zone are set correctly.  This may

	  seem a little silly, since your message still gets there, but many

	  of the people you are trying to reach get several hundred messages a

	  day.  They frequently sort the incoming messages by subject and by

	  date, and if your message does not come before the first answer, they

	  may assume they missed it and not bother to look.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Do not include unrelated questions in the same message.  Firstly,

	  a long message tends to scare people off, and secondly, it is more

	  difficult to get all the people who can answer all the questions to

	  read the message.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Specify as much information as possible. This is a difficult

	  area, and we need to expand on what information you need to submit,

	  but here is a start:</para>

	<itemizedlist>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>In nearly every case, it is important to know the version of

	      FreeBSD you are running.  This is particularly the case for

	      FreeBSD-CURRENT, where you should also specify the date of the

	      sources, though of course you should not be sending questions

	      about -CURRENT to FreeBSD-questions.</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem><para>With any problem which <emphasis>could</emphasis> be

	      hardware related, tell us about your hardware.  In case of

	      doubt, assume it is possible that it is hardware.  What kind of

	      CPU are you using?  How fast?  What motherboard?  How much

	      memory?  What peripherals?</para>

	    <para>There is a judgement call here, of course, but the output of

	      the &man.dmesg.8; command can frequently be very useful, since it

	      tells not just what hardware you are running, but what version of

	      FreeBSD as well.</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>If you get error messages, do not say <quote>I get error

		messages</quote>, say (for example) <quote>I get the error

		message 'No route to host'</quote>.</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>If your system panics, do not say <quote>My system

		panicked</quote>, say (for example) <quote>my system panicked

		with the message 'free vnode isn't'</quote>.</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>If you have difficulty installing FreeBSD, please tell us

	      what hardware you have.  In particular, it is important to know

	      the IRQs and I/O addresses of the boards installed in your

	      machine.</para>

	  </listitem>

	  <listitem>

	    <para>If you have difficulty getting PPP to run, describe the

	      configuration.  Which version of PPP do you use?  What kind of

	      authentication do you have?  Do you have a static or dynamic IP

	      address?  What kind of messages do you get in the log

	      file?</para>

	  </listitem>

	</itemizedlist>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

          <para>A lot of the information you need to supply is the output of

	  programs, such as &man.dmesg.8;, or console messages, which usually

	  appear in <filename>/var/log/messages</filename>.  Do not try to copy

	  this information by typing it in again; it is a real pain, and you are

	  bound to make a mistake. To send log file contents, either make a

	  copy of the file and use an editor to trim the information to what

	  is relevant, or cut and paste into your message.  For the output of

	  programs like &man.dmesg.8;, redirect the output to a file and

	  include that.  For example,</para>

	<screen>&prompt.user; <userinput>dmesg &gt; /tmp/dmesg.out</userinput></screen>

	<para>This redirects the information to the file

	  <filename>/tmp/dmesg.out</filename>.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>If you do all this, and you still do not get an answer, there

	  could be other reasons.  For example, the problem is so complicated

	  that nobody knows the answer, or the person who does know the answer

	  was offline.  If you do not get an answer after, say, a week, it

	  might help to re-send the message.  If you do not get an answer to

	  your second message, though, you are probably not going to get one

	  from this forum.  Resending the same message again and again will

	  only make you unpopular.</para>

      </listitem>

    </itemizedlist>

    <para>To summarize, let's assume you know the answer to the following

      question (yes, it is the same one in each case).

      You choose which of these two questions you would be more prepared to

      answer:</para>

    <example>

      <title>Message 1</title>

      <literallayout class="monospaced">Subject: HELP!!?!??

I just can't get hits damn silly FereBSD system to

workd, and Im really good at this tsuff, but I have never seen

anythign sho difficult to install, it jst wont work whatever I try

so why don't you guys tell me what I doing wrong.</literallayout>

    </example>

    <example>

      <title>Message 2</title>

    <literallayout class="monospaced">Subject: Problems installing FreeBSD

I've just got the FreeBSD 2.1.5 CDROM from Walnut Creek, and I'm having a lot

of difficulty installing it.  I have a 66 MHz 486 with 16 MB of

memory and an Adaptec 1540A SCSI board, a 1.2GB Quantum Fireball

disk and a Toshiba 3501XA CDROM drive.  The installation works just

fine, but when I try to reboot the system, I get the message

<quote>Missing Operating System</quote>.</literallayout>

    </example>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="followup">How to follow up to a question</title>

    <para>Often you will want to send in additional information to a question

      you have already sent.  The best way to do this is to reply to your

      original message.  This has three advantages:</para>

    <orderedlist>

      <listitem>

	<para>You include the original message text, so people will know what

	  you are talking about.  Do not forget to trim unnecessary text out,

	  though.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>The text in the subject line stays the same (you did remember to

	  put one in, did you not?).  Many mailers will sort messages by

	  subject. This helps group messages together.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>The message reference numbers in the header will refer to the

	  previous message.  Some mailers, such as

	  <ulink url="http://www.mutt.org/">mutt</ulink>, can

	  <emphasis>thread</emphasis> messages, showing the exact

	  relationships between the messages.</para>

      </listitem>

    </orderedlist>

  </sect1>

  <sect1>

    <title id="answer">How to answer a question</title>

    <para>Before you answer a question to FreeBSD-questions, consider:</para>

    <orderedlist>

      <listitem>

	<para>A lot of the points on submitting questions also apply to

	  answering questions.  Read them.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Has somebody already answered the question?  The easiest way to

	  check this is to sort your incoming mail by subject: then

	  (hopefully) you will see the question followed by any answers, all

	  together.</para>

	<para>If somebody has already answered it, it does not automatically

	  mean that you should not send another answer.  But it makes sense to

	  read all the other answers first.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Do you have something to contribute beyond what has already been

	  said?  In general, <quote>Yeah, me too</quote> answers do not help

	  much, although there are exceptions, like when somebody is

	  describing a problem he is having, and he does not know whether it is

	  his fault or whether there is something wrong with the hardware or

	  software.  If you do send a <quote>me too</quote> answer, you should

	  also include any further relevant information.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Are you sure you understand the question?  Very frequently, the

	  person who asks the question is confused or does not express himself

	  very well.  Even with the best understanding of the system, it is

	  easy to send a reply which does not answer the question.  This

	  does not help: you will leave the person who submitted the question

	  more frustrated or confused than ever.  If nobody else answers, and

	  you are not too sure either, you can always ask for more

	  information.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Are you sure your answer is correct?

	If not, wait a day or so. If nobody else comes up with a

	better answer, you can still reply and say, for example, <quote>I

	do not know if this is correct, but since nobody else has

	replied, why don't you try replacing your ATAPI CDROM with

	a frog?</quote>.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Unless there is a good reason to do otherwise, reply to the

	  sender and to FreeBSD-questions. Many people on the

	  FreeBSD-questions are <quote>lurkers</quote>: they learn by reading

	  messages sent and replied to by others. If you take a message which

	  is of general interest off the list, you are depriving these people

	  of their information. Be careful with group replies; lots of people

	  send messages with hundreds of CCs. If this is the case, be sure to

	  trim the Cc: lines appropriately.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Include relevant text from the original message. Trim it to the

	  minimum, but do not overdo it.  It should still be possible for

	  somebody who did not read the original message to understand what

	  you are talking about.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Use some technique to identify which text came from the original

	  message, and which text you add.  I personally find that prepending

	  <quote><literal>&gt; </literal></quote> to the original message

	  works best.  Leaving white space after the

	  <quote><literal>&gt; </literal></quote> and leave empty lines

	  between your text and the original text both make the result more

	  readable.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Put your response in the correct place (after the text to which

	  it replies).  It is very difficult to read a thread of responses

	  where each reply comes before the text to which it replies.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>Most mailers change the subject line on a reply by prepending a

	  text such as <quote>Re: </quote>.  If your mailer does not do it

	  automatically, you should do it manually.</para>

      </listitem>

      <listitem>

	<para>If the submitter did not abide by format conventions (lines too

	  long, inappropriate subject line), <emphasis>please</emphasis> fix

	  it. In the case of an incorrect subject line (such as

	  <quote>HELP!!??</quote>), change the subject line to (say)

	  <quote>Re: Difficulties with sync PPP (was: HELP!!??)</quote>.  That

	  way other people trying to follow the thread will have less

	  difficulty following it.</para>

	<para>In such cases, it is appropriate to say what you did and why you

	  did it, but try not to be rude.  If you find you can not answer

	  without being rude, do not answer.</para>

	<para>If you just want to reply to a message because of its bad

	  format, just reply to the submitter, not to the list.  You can just

	  send him this message in reply, if you like.</para>

      </listitem>

    </orderedlist>

  </sect1>

</article>

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