Bug 155759 - Please upgrade devel/tcl-neo for newer Berkeley DB release
Summary: Please upgrade devel/tcl-neo for newer Berkeley DB release
Status: Closed FIXED
Alias: None
Product: Ports & Packages
Classification: Unclassified
Component: Individual Port(s) (show other bugs)
Version: Latest
Hardware: Any Any
: Normal Affects Only Me
Assignee: Mikhail Teterin
URL:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2011-03-21 20:30 UTC by Matthias Andree
Modified: 2011-05-23 16:40 UTC (History)
1 user (show)

See Also:


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Description Matthias Andree freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-03-21 20:30:01 UTC
Greetings,

I am planning to kill databases/db2 and .../db3 and .../db40 from the
ports tree. devel/tcl-neo is the last user of this database version.

Please upgrade the port so that it can work with Berkeley DB 4.1 to
avoid this port breaking if db2 gets removed. This requires source code
changes, possibly the upstream has a newer version.
Comment 1 Edwin Groothuis freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-03-21 20:30:20 UTC
Responsible Changed
From-To: freebsd-ports-bugs->mi

mi@aldan.algebra.com => mi@ (via the GNATS Auto Assign Tool)
Comment 2 Edwin Groothuis freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-03-21 20:30:25 UTC
Maintainer of devel/tcl-neo,

Please note that PR ports/155759 has just been submitted.

If it contains a patch for an upgrade, an enhancement or a bug fix
you agree on, reply to this email stating that you approve the patch
and a committer will take care of it.

The full text of the PR can be found at:
    http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=ports/155759

-- 
Edwin Groothuis via the GNATS Auto Assign Tool
edwin@FreeBSD.org
Comment 3 Edwin Groothuis freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-03-21 20:30:30 UTC
State Changed
From-To: open->feedback

Awaiting maintainers feedback (via the GNATS Auto Assign Tool)
Comment 4 dfilter service freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-04-12 22:54:12 UTC
mandree     2011-04-12 21:54:04 UTC

  FreeBSD ports repository

  Modified files:
    devel/tcl-neo        Makefile 
  Log:
  Mark broken in anticipation of the imminent db2 removal.
  Maintainer failed to respond since 2011-03-21, see
  PR: ports/155759
  
  Revision  Changes    Path
  1.18      +2 -0      ports/devel/tcl-neo/Makefile
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Comment 5 dfilter service freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-04-12 23:03:51 UTC
mandree     2011-04-12 22:03:37 UTC

  FreeBSD ports repository

  Modified files:
    www/neowebscript     Makefile 
    devel/tcl-neo        Makefile 
  Log:
  Deprecate and mark for expiry www/neowebscript and devel/tcl-neo.
  
  See also - pending since 2011-03-21 -
  PR: ports/155759
  
  Revision  Changes    Path
  1.19      +2 -0      ports/devel/tcl-neo/Makefile
  1.18      +3 -0      ports/www/neowebscript/Makefile
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Comment 6 matthias.andree 2011-04-12 23:05:31 UTC
Note that I have marked BROKEN, DEPRECATED and EXPIRY_DATE these ports:

devel/tcl-neo
www/neowebscript

They used to be the sole users of devel/db2, which had been outdated for 
ages and was now removed from ports.

-- 
Matthias Andree
Comment 7 Matthias Andree freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-04-12 23:05:47 UTC
State Changed
From-To: feedback->suspended

maintainer timeout
Comment 8 dfilter service freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-05-22 22:34:42 UTC
mandree     2011-05-22 21:34:32 UTC

  FreeBSD ports repository

  Modified files:
    .                    MOVED 
    devel                Makefile 
    www                  Makefile 
  Removed files:
    devel/tcl-neo        Makefile distinfo pkg-descr pkg-plist 
    devel/tcl-neo/files  Makefile.bsd patch-config patch-cute 
                         patch-db patch-md5 patch-warnings 
    www/neowebscript     Makefile distinfo pkg-descr pkg-plist 
    www/neowebscript/files Makefile.bsd Makefile.lib 
                           neowebscript.conf.in patch-access 
                           patch-common patch-db patch-docs 
                           patch-gd patch-init patch-neoscript 
                           patch-warnings pkg-message.in 
  Log:
  Kill deprecated ports: devel/tcl-neo and www/neowebscript.
  These have been broken and deprecated for weeks, the maintainer
  has not responded, and there was no discussion in the PR or on ports@.
  
  PR: ports/155759
  
  Revision  Changes    Path
  1.2461    +3 -1      ports/MOVED
  1.4333    +0 -1      ports/devel/Makefile
  1.21      +0 -58     ports/devel/tcl-neo/Makefile (dead)
  1.4       +0 -3      ports/devel/tcl-neo/distinfo (dead)
  1.7       +0 -30     ports/devel/tcl-neo/files/Makefile.bsd (dead)
  1.2       +0 -4      ports/devel/tcl-neo/files/patch-config (dead)
  1.4       +0 -381    ports/devel/tcl-neo/files/patch-cute (dead)
  1.2       +0 -10     ports/devel/tcl-neo/files/patch-db (dead)
  1.2       +0 -27     ports/devel/tcl-neo/files/patch-md5 (dead)
  1.3       +0 -938    ports/devel/tcl-neo/files/patch-warnings (dead)
  1.3       +0 -22     ports/devel/tcl-neo/pkg-descr (dead)
  1.5       +0 -63     ports/devel/tcl-neo/pkg-plist (dead)
  1.2888    +0 -1      ports/www/Makefile
  1.19      +0 -58     ports/www/neowebscript/Makefile (dead)
  1.5       +0 -2      ports/www/neowebscript/distinfo (dead)
  1.2       +0 -18     ports/www/neowebscript/files/Makefile.bsd (dead)
  1.6       +0 -33     ports/www/neowebscript/files/Makefile.lib (dead)
  1.3       +0 -45     ports/www/neowebscript/files/neowebscript.conf.in (dead)
  1.3       +0 -249    ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-access (dead)
  1.2       +0 -19     ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-common (dead)
  1.2       +0 -29     ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-db (dead)
  1.2       +0 -9      ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-docs (dead)
  1.2       +0 -12     ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-gd (dead)
  1.2       +0 -62     ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-init (dead)
  1.4       +0 -433    ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-neoscript (dead)
  1.2       +0 -21     ports/www/neowebscript/files/patch-warnings (dead)
  1.3       +0 -9      ports/www/neowebscript/files/pkg-message.in (dead)
  1.2       +0 -16     ports/www/neowebscript/pkg-descr (dead)
  1.5       +0 -853    ports/www/neowebscript/pkg-plist (dead)
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Comment 9 Matthias Andree freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-05-22 22:35:31 UTC
State Changed
From-To: suspended->closed

Broken ports deleted, no maintainer interest, no objections on ports@ or 
in this PR.
Comment 10 Mikhail T. 2011-05-23 03:54:58 UTC
For the (more explicit) record, objects on ports@ were loud and 
substantiated: the death of databases/db2 was uncalled for, in my 
opinion -- the port was not broken. Its gratuitous removal resulted in 
the death of these two ports, which were also not broken before...

    -mi
Comment 11 Matthias Andree freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-05-23 11:42:22 UTC
Am 23.05.2011 04:54, schrieb Mikhail T.:
> For the (more explicit) record, objects on ports@ were loud and
> substantiated: the death of databases/db2 was uncalled for, in my
> opinion -- the port was not broken. Its gratuitous removal resulted in
> the death of these two ports, which were also not broken before...

Mikhail,

In your particular case, you as the maintainer remained silent on the
relevant PR although Erwin and I have pointed you to it on March 21st
and your ports were broken since the db2 removal in April.  Furthermore,
you stated that you as the maintainer won't touch the software just
because it is old.  It was broken since the db2 removal in April, still
you chose not to do anything technical.  So, you proved that the port
wasn't maintained properly, and that justified its removal.

And even though we don't need another reason, I'll provide you with one:

Also note the quote from tcl-neo's pkg-descr:

"The port is built without the LDAP support. Our port of OpenLDAP2
uses DB3, and linking both DB2 and DB3 into the same executable is
too ugly. Some day, Neo will be updated to use DB3, and we will all
rejoice."

A decade on, OpenLDAP2 wants BerkeleyDB 4.6, but Neo hasn't followed
suit.  Conclusion: neowebscript is not only unmaintained in ports, but
also unmaintained upstream.

I do concur with Wesley Shields and Eitan Adler that we don't need
unmaintained software in the ports tree, and certainly not for network
server packages.  According to established and documented practice, the
ports are now gone.  Good riddance.

Best regards,
Matthias
Comment 12 Mikhail T. 2011-05-23 15:13:09 UTC
On 23.05.2011 06:42, Matthias Andree wrote:
> In your particular case, you as the maintainer remained silent on the
> relevant PR although Erwin and I have pointed you to it on March 21st
This is true -- I was silent on the PR. My earlier objection was to my alleged 
"silence" on ports@
> and your ports were broken since the db2 removal in April.
Yes, they were. The person(s) behind that gratuitous removal is/are responsible 
for the breakage of tcl-neo*
> Conclusion: neowebscript is not only unmaintained in ports, but
> also unmaintained upstream.
Both were maintained in the ports as much as was needed to ensure successful 
builds -- until some busybody came along to remove the perfectly functional 
databases/db2 -- on bogus grounds.
> I do concur with Wesley Shields and Eitan Adler that we don't need
> unmaintained software in the ports tree
I'm well familiar with this line of reasoning and reject it. As long as the port 
builds -- and has no known unpatched security holes -- it is "maintained" and 
should not be removed. All other reasons: "too old", "not used by anybody I 
know", etc. are subjective and are based of non-existent statistics. Though 
tcl-neo* themselves stopped building, this was a result of the (gratuitous) 
removal of db2 -- and whoever was behind that removal, was supposed to fix the 
fallout, or, better yet, find some other application for their energy.

That a package is discontinued up-stream is not a good reason for removal at all 
-- not until you remove games/bsdgames and the entire KDE3 (for just some 
examples)...

That said, I'm not insisting, the ports be resurrected and will not be doing it 
myself out of spite. I'm no longer using the software, and neither does the 
client, for whom I originally ported it. But I don't like this drive to remove 
working ports, in which the energetic removers see no value personally, and 
restate this position again because, evidently, certain active decision-makers 
weren't aware of it...

Yours,

    -mi
Comment 13 Matthias Andree freebsd_committer freebsd_triage 2011-05-23 16:24:01 UTC
Am 23.05.2011 16:13, schrieb Mikhail T.:
> On 23.05.2011 06:42, Matthias Andree wrote:

>> In your particular case, you as the maintainer remained silent on the
>> relevant PR although Erwin and I have pointed you to it on March 21st

> This is true -- I was silent on the PR. My earlier objection was to my
> alleged "silence" on ports@

Please insert blank lines between quotes and replies.

>> and your ports were broken since the db2 removal in April.
> Yes, they were. The person(s) behind that gratuitous removal is/are
> responsible for the breakage of tcl-neo*

Yes. See below.  It may be hard to see one's former work go away.  I
understand that this causes hard feelings, and I thank you for the past
work you've done.

Still, if the port itself is way outdated and had to be patched up so it
could creep forward in spite of promises to fix issues such as the
dependency mixes, that is a technical observation and reason for removal.

> Both were maintained in the ports as much as was needed to ensure
> successful builds -- until some busybody came along to remove the
> perfectly functional databases/db2 -- on bogus grounds.

"Perfectly functional" is what you call a library that has been outdated
for a dozen years, and superseded by 14 releases since.
And these weren't feature releases, with very few exceptions.

> "maintained" and should not be removed. All other reasons: "too old",
> "not used by anybody I know", etc. are subjective and are based of
> non-existent statistics. Though tcl-neo* themselves stopped building,
> this was a result of the (gratuitous) removal of db2 -- and whoever was
> behind that removal, was supposed to fix the fallout, or, better yet,
> find some other application for their energy.

"Not used by anybody I know" is not my argument, and to avoid just that,
two months of time for technical objection were granted before the removal.

And I have spent effort to upgrade db3-only applications over the past
weeks so that I could remove db3 earlier today.  (mail/spamprobe is
currently broken for different reasons, namely libpbl C++
incompatibilities).  For db2 I suspected what you've confirmed: no users
left for this abandoned software.

> That a package is discontinued up-stream is not a good reason for
> removal at all -- not until you remove games/bsdgames and the entire
> KDE3 (for just some examples)...

The packages in questions were not only discontinued more than ten years
ago, but in the case of Berkeley DB 2.7.7, superseded as well.

> That said, I'm not insisting, the ports be resurrected and will not be
> doing it myself out of spite. I'm no longer using the software, and
> neither does the client, for whom I originally ported it. But I don't
> like this drive to remove working ports, in which the energetic removers
> see no value personally, and restate this position again because,
> evidently, certain active decision-makers weren't aware of it...

There's more to come in the way of Berkeley DB port cleanups... we've
still got more than a dozen, and that needs to change.  We can get along
with a lot less, see pkgsrc.org or your typical Linux distro, and we
should do that, to remove the strain on sysadmins of pinning Berkeley DB
versions.  That would be more of a user service than forcefully keeping
clinically-dead ports alive.

Best regards,
Matthias
Comment 14 Mikhail T. 2011-05-23 16:33:30 UTC
On 23.05.2011 11:24, Matthias Andree wrote:
> discontinued more than ten years ago, but in the case of Berkeley DB 2.7.7, superseded as well.

These -- being "too old" (BSD's hack is much older, BTW) or "superseded" -- 
aren't valid reasons in my opinion. As long as a package keeps building -- and 
there were no problems with it, when db2 was removed -- it should not be 
deleted. Ever. Even the maintainer (who does "know best", how to maintain it) 
can't remove it -- only disown it.

    -mi